ANTSTORE World of Ants

[gabranth]

i don't think intraspecific homogenisation would apply to lasius niger there the same species if you were releasing Messor barbarus in a area were there were Messor hesperius and no barbarus and they started breeding with each other then it would be a problem

[tail__]

kill the colony with boiling water.

Oh boy. I'm really becoming afraid of environmental fundamentalism. Maybe we should also execute every foreigners trying to cross our borders, just in case. Or at least shave their hair carefully, to ensure they don't carry non-native lice. I wonder if the author knows how many insects are imported with plants. And in millions of crates with various imported goods. Not even counting these dispersing by natural methods, like with strong winds or floating in pieces of wood (somehow insects settled even on very remote islands way before human era). Whatever problems the invasive species can make, none of them was ever caused by insect keepers (with one notable exception - africanized honey bee in America. But this surely was introducing exotic species.)

[gabranth]

Maybe we should also execute every foreigners trying to cross our borders

/signed

[Necturus]

i don't think intraspecific homogenisation would apply to Lasius niger there the same species if you were releasing Messor barbarus in a area were there were Messor hesperius and no barbarus and they started breeding with each other then it would be a problem

INTRAspecific homogenisation refers to the genetic homogenisation WITHIN a species. Usually, a species is seperated from others by their ability to create fertile offspring with a mate. So by definition (not by nature, which is a bit ungratefull with taxonomists at times) species do not mix - yet theres a lot of hybrids within ants, too. Anyways...as mentioned before, every population has adaptions to their very local environment (which does differ even when looking at a relatively small distance, ie germany and england.) Assume that english populations are adapted to ie. deeper temperatures during winter, unlike their german counterparts. Where they to mix during seasons of temperate or normal winters, a sudden "deep" winter (by english standards) could kill all colonys carrying genetics from the "german" colony. Just a fictional example, but this is how the gene thing works.

kill the colony with boiling water.

...I'm really becoming afraid of environmental fundamentalism...(

Its a better and more responsible choice then to set them free, not a more desireable. I would be glad if he was to find someone to take the colony of his hands. By the way, you might want to try and sell them back to the store, although the "value" of this colony might be lower then shipment cost. Obviously killing the colony is an extreme, but would you propagate to set them free? Between these positive and negative extremes, do you see any intermediates? Only option to me is to anticipate this situation from the beginning...

...I wonder if the author knows how many insects are imported with plants... Whatever problems the invasive species can make, none of them was ever caused by insect keepers...

We're getting off track here, as i was refering to a completely different topic - intraspecific homogenisation deserves to be at least mentioned on the english forum as well, even if argumented against so emotionaly (why is that by the way? just stating a measurable fact... do you feel any of your rights threatend by reasonable argumentation?) But for the sake of it:
How can you be certain that no escaped insects have long established a population? And even if none did so far, how certain can you be that it wont happen? I do well understand your convinced of it, but can you really rule it out? And since you do seem to be aware of the problems associated with invasive species, why risk making a bad thing worse?

Maybe we should also execute every foreigners trying to cross our borders

That one kinda missed the point, eh?

On a personal note... if stating these simple facts makes me an "fundamentalist" of any kind, what does that make you and your way of argumentation?

[gabranth]

every population has adaptions to their very local environment (which does differ even when looking at a relatively small distance, ie germany and england.) Assume that english populations are adapted to ie. deeper temperatures during winter, unlike their german counterparts. Where they to mix during seasons of temperate or normal winters, a sudden "deep" winter (by english standards) could kill all colonys carrying genetics from the "german" colony. Just a fictional example, but this is how the gene thing works.

the uk has a lot of rain not snow and is there any evidence showing how mixing the ant species will course harm

[jcrusader]

you can give them back to the shop? plz could you give me a link to that

[Necturus]

grabanth,
Hey, as i thought id marked out sufficiently, this was a fictional example. If you feel more comfortable with it, exchange "germany" and "england"
Unfortunately, i could only give you german articles on the topic. Does it cause harm? Yes. Diluting species local adaptions (again, NOT mixing species!) obviously will negatively effect all offspring. Those adaptions gradually came into beeing by "natural selection". Im trying to figure out to what extend i should try and explain this, but maybe you should just start by googling "evolution" and then work your way up

jcrusader, try writing an email to the store. In case you bought them here, try verkauf@antstore.net .
Tried convincing some friends to a new hobby?

[gabranth]

Does it cause harm? Yes. Diluting species local adaptions (again, NOT mixing species!) obviously will negatively effect all offspring.

do you mean add more ants to the local environment for it to handle ?

[insanebe]

im gonna play devils advocate here and say couldn't you argue it the other way round, that by introducing a cold resistant uk adapted version you enable a small number to survive this mini german ice age where as otherwise they would become exinct. And if that did happen wouldn't that just be natural selection ?

what im trying to say is if they are the same species isn't introducing a bit of genetic variation good for them.

( having said that i would never release any of my ants into my garden native or otherwise due to risks of transmitting diseases etc)

[gabranth]

( having said that i would never release any of my ants into my garden native or otherwise due to risks of transmitting diseases etc)

why not travellers and farmers do it all the time

[insanebe]

as i said transmission of diseases, you only have to look at what happened to red squirrels decimated by squirrel pox against which they had no immunity after the introduction of grey squirrels

[gabranth]

grey squirrels came from america were talking about mixing ants from 2 country's which are native to both which is different to mixing them from different continents were there not native

[insanebe]

There are Lasius niger all over the world including america and asia who knows where the one from an ant shop came from or what its carrying.

[gabranth]

it would of came from europe its against the law to export them from america and importing them from places other than europe would involve more paper work and cost

[insanebe]

now your guessing